Can a racist be reformed? Today, the stories of two men. Both are avowed members of the White Supremacy movement. One still struggles with redemption. The other now works with the people he used to hate. A look at the areas of White Arian resistance.
Male Voice 1: There you stand, talking to me about peace, love, Siddartha, Buddha, Jesus Christ, and here I stand with my swastika flag. I hold it up to you, and I say, ³White Power, fuck you.² Get out of here. You get hurt. You get afraid. You get angry. I get you on my level.
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Catherine Crier: When we imagine a drug user, most of us picture a lonely man or woman on the street, with red eyes, shaking hands, dirty clothes, track marks and frail bodies. But this is not necessarily the case. Todayıs drug user is the person next door. Your child, your boss, your best fried. And the drug of choice may be a psychedelic drug called Ecstasy.
Ecstasy is finding its way to the covers of newspapers and magazines all over this country. Itıs become so popular that a record eight million doses of the drug were seized by Customs agents this year, alone. Rick [Doblin] doesnıt think this surge in Ecstasy use is all bad. In fact, he advocates the use of psychedelic drugs under certain circumstances. He joins us in our studio.
Sue Stevens agrees with Rick. Sheıs used Ecstasy to help her through a very difficult time in her life. Sheıs here as well. And Ethan Brown, who took to the streets and clubs to do an exposé for New York Magazine joins us. Joining them, Dr. David McDowell on the effects of Ecstasy on your brain and your body.
Welcome, everyone.
All right. Doctor, let me start with you. Take out the value judgements for just a moment. Tell me what Ecstasy is and what effects it has on the brain. Where does somebody get the euphoria?
Dr. David McDowell: Itıs a powerful drug. A powerful medication or drug that works principally on a system of the brain called seratonin. Itıs one of the primitive systems that regulates mood, appetite, sexual response, that sort of thing. Technically, itıs an indirect synergic [agonist]. What that means is that it causes the brain to sort of release a great deal of seratonin. That gives the person a feeling of euphoria and empathy, in connection to the world, as well as energy.
Catherine Crier: Okay. Is this drug physically addictive?
Dr. McDowell: Not in the sense that you would mean. You donıt take repeated doses. People donıt become dependant upon it
Catherine Crier: You wouldnıt go through withdrawal?
Dr. McDowell: No.
Catherine Crier: In other words, a physical reaction? Psychologically?
Dr. McDowell: Psychologically, certainly anything can become addictive. Iıve seen cases of that. Yes.
Catherine Crier: Okay. The physical dangers that have been studied and are agreed upon.
Dr. McDowell: Okay. There are immediate consequences. Rare. Of overheating and deaths. But they luckily happen quite rarely. As well, there are kind of common feelings of depression, afterwards. They can be very severe.
Catherine Crier: They talk about getting a real ³high.² Then the depression hangover the next day.
Dr. McDowell: Yes.
Catherine Crier: Or when the seratonin levels change.
Dr. McDowell: Yes.
Catherine Crier: You drop.
Dr. McDowell: Suicide Tuesday is one of the names.
Catherine Crier: Okay.
Dr. McDowell: For that dense feeling of depression. The real problem is that there is pretty compelling, though mostly indirect evidence, that the drug itself may destroy a portion of the seratonin system. And a percentage of some [axoms] that may be permanent.
Catherine Crier: Okay. Interestingly, I was reading some research. It said we donıt know whether the seratonin is necessary. Is that fair?
Dr. McDowell: Oh, yes.
Catherine Crier: Is it like your appendix?
Dr. McDowell: Yes. Most biological systems are redundant. They can take a lot of abuse, and you donıt need all that you have. Nature has a way of sort of providing extra. The problem is that if you remove some extra, it may not effect most people. In fact, it probably wonıt. But 10, 20 or 30 years from now, the person that might have never gotten a depression may experience a mild one. The person who would have experienced a mile one may have a more severe one. Or the people who are prone to depression or mood disorders might, in fact, have very severe ones that are harder and harder to treat.
Catherine Crier: Okay. Let me bring Ethan in. Now, what sent you out on this investigative journey?
Ethan Brown: What sent me out was precisely the eight million number you cited earlier. I had begun to see Ecstasy crossing over into the professional world. Wall Street and places like that. I didnıt feel the term, ³Club Drug,² was appropriate any more for Ecstasy. It had become a really universal phenomenon. So I just wanted to address that with a piece.
Catherine Crier: All right. Well, you really did some in-depth research. I learned a lot. For example, Ecstasyıs been around since the early 1900ıs. It really sort of fell into dormancy until it was re-tested in the 1960ıs or 1970ıs. Mr. Brown: Yes. Catherine Crier: And that what? It wasnıt until the early 1980ıs that it was manufactured legally. Then a few years later, the federal government comes in and says, ³Ah, weıre going to put this on the drug list.² So what caused this resurgence or discovery, if you will, in the 1980ıs? Mr. Brown: Honestly, club culture. Underground club cultures in major cities in the United States. Like New York and Chicago. Then in the late 1980ıs, the explosion of the Rave scene in Europe really put it on the map. It became again associated with clubbers and clubbing in the early 1990ıs in America. Basically, whatıs up and happening is that the word of mouth on Ecstasy has been so positive until now, that its use has just spread and spread and spread. Catherine Crier: Okay. When the clubbers say, ³Gee, this is the drug to take,² why is it? Mr. Brown: Yes. Catherine Crier: I mean, I read about the all-night dancing and the this and that. What are the effects that theyıre looking for? Mr. Brown: I think itıs a very post-modern drug, in that it provides people with connections that they donıt normally have. It provides closer friendships and better communications. Things like that. The amphetamine part of ecstasy, that ³rush,² is really perfectly suited for a night out dancing, as well. So. Catherine Crier: All right. Well, let me bring Sue in here. Because you talk about ³better connections.² I think a lot of people at home are going to, ³What are you talking about?² Weıre talking about drugs, here. We donıt need them to make better connections with other people. What was your experience, Sue? Sue Stevens: My husband had cancer. Terminal. It put a real big wedge between us, and we were fighting something horrible. Some friends told us about the research that theyıre trying to do for terminal patients, with the MDMA, and we tried it. Everything worked out beautifully. After our first session, we had no more fighting. Catherine Crier: Okay. You say, ³session.² The two of you sit down and say, ³Weıre going to both take Ecstasy.² And what? Ms. Stevens: Right. We did a lot of research on it and learned as much as we possibly could. We picked a night, made sure the house was nice and quiet. We had all of our fluids there. We sat down and just waited for the effects to kick in. Catherine Crier: And what were those effects? Ms. Stevens: Very calm. Very peaceful. A really strong feeling of closeness. Then we just wanted to open up to each other. The cancer was something that we hadnıt talked about, in the or two and a half years that heıd had it. So we started talking, and three or four hours later, we got everything out in the open. We wouldnıt talk about it before because I would cry and he would get really upset. Because heıs making me upset, indirectly. So weıd just never talked about it. We just opened up and talked and talked and talked. We got everything out in the open. After that, no more fighting. We became allies. His health perked right up. Catherine Crier: Youıre saying there were after-effects. In other words, the ability to communicate wouldnıt continue off of the drug, would it? Ms. Stevens: I think it did. Catherine Crier: Because you opened it up with the conversation. Ms. Stevens: Because we opened up the channels of communication. Everything that we learned that night, we incorporated into the rest of our lives together. For the next two and a half years. Catherine Crier: Okay. Now let me play devilıs advocate just a bit. Because when they describe the inter-connectedness, I think medically the doctor would agree. Weıre talking about the lack of inhibition, to some extent? Is that fair? Dr. McDowell: No, actually, I think thereıs fairly good human research that shows it really does create a feeling of empathy. Catherine Crier: Okay. But weıre talking about a chemical reaction that creates that feeling of empathy. Is that right? Dr. McDowell: But itıs not vapors floating through your brain. Catherine Crier: Okay. Dr. McDowell: Itıs neuro-chemicals and inter-connections. So itıs not dis-inhibition. Itıs empathy. Catherine Crier: Okay. Well, let me throw in a little scenario I read about. A woman took Ecstasy and found herself attracted to a guy who, before the pill said, ³Not a chance.² And then she wakes up the next morning and heıs next to her. And sheıs like, ³Aw, geeze. Yes. A lot of empathy, and we connected all night long. Iım really sorry that happened.² Do you see that there could be a down-side effect? Ms. Stevens: Oh, yes. I do see that. But improper usage. I mean, I would never take it with someone I wasnıt already connected to. Or someone that I didnıt want the lines of communication opening up with. When I did it with Shane, I mean, heıs my life partner. Thatıs a lot different. Catherine Crier: Okay. I read an article where you described the effects on him. It helped him to find, ³the right attitude to deal with his illness.² I wonder what ³the right attitude² is. Should we be looking to drugs or medication to find the right attitude? Is that fair? Ms. Stevens: How would you feel if you found out that you were dying? Catherine Crier: Iıve never been in that circumstance. Ms. Stevens: Exactly. Catherine Crier: Someday I assume that will Ms. Stevens: Yes. Itıs a hard thing to deal with. And he didnıt know how to deal with it. We dealt with it by keeping it closed up. You know? He kept it to himself; I kept it to myself. In turn, itıs helped started going down. By the time we started the first session, his ex-rays were proving that his time was up, basically. You know, I had talked to Rick Doblin about it. I was telling him about the brain tumor that they had just discovered. Shaneıs health was going down. He was having a hard time getting up in the morning and going to work. Just did not want to live any more. We did the first session, and after that his whole attitude changed. He found a fight inside of him. Catherine Crier: Right. How many ³sessions² did you have? Ms. Stevens: I believe, four. Catherine Crier: Right. Was this every day, sort of once a week? How did you make this determination? Ms. Stevens: We did the first session after it was suggested that it may help. You know, there were no guarantees. It was all in our approach to it. If we decided to do it, this was how we should go about it. You know? Try to open up to each other. Catherine Crier: Yes. Ms. Stevens: After that, we can into more hard times. The brain tumor was discovered. It kind of set us backwards a little bit, because everything had started going so positively. We were really dealing with the cancer and really dealing with him being terminal. Then the brain tumor showed up. Ms. Stevens: So we decided to do another session so we could talk some more. It just basically, once the really hard things in life came about, was when we decided it was time. Catherine Crier: Okay. Let me bring Rick in here. Rick Doblin. You have a web site. Youıre president of the Multi-disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. You are interested in seeing more research on the medical side of things. Is that fair? Rick Doblin: Yes. Thatıs very fair. Catherine Crier: Okay. To what end? Dr. Doblin: Well, I just finished a PhD at Harvard, at the Kennedy School of Government on the regulated use of psychedelic drugs. So the end that Iıd like to see is MDMA being made available as a prescription medicine to psychiatrists for use in special facilities. Physicians with special training. We need to create legal contexts for people to get the benefits of MDMA, that it can offer to people. Catherine Crier: What sort of benefits? When I looked at the web site, it says, ³Can you imagine a cultural reintegration of the use of psychedelics, and the state of mind that they engender?² A lot of people would think, ³Oh, my God, heıs saying, Letıs hand out LSD to all the kids.ı² Dr. Doblin: No. What Iım saying is this. If you look at cultural history, our culture is an anomaly. We have pushed out altered states of consciousness. Weıve either criminalized it or looked down on it. Most cultures have found a way to integrate the unconscious through ceremonies or drugs. Weıre a cultural anomaly. What I think that we need to do is find ways, first through medicine. Because people tend to have the most trust in medicine. MAPS is doing a study in Spain right now, with women survivors of sexual assault, who have post-traumatic stress that has not been successfully treated by other drugs. I think that in that instance, it can help. In helping with terminal cancer. In marital therapy. Thereıs a hidden part of the history of MDMA which is from the middle 1970ıs to the early 1980ıs. Over half a million doses were used by people from age 30 to age 70, in a psycho-therapeutic context. It leaked out of that into the popular culture. When the DEA tried to move against MDMA in 1984, they had no knowledge that there had been this secret underground history of the therapeutic use of MDMA. It was kept secret for fear that it would become more widely used, more widely abused, and the government would react against it. When the government reacts against it, not only do they try to shut down the recreational and non-medical use, but it becomes almost impossible if not impossible to get permission to do research into the medical potentials of these drugs. Catherine Crier: Okay. You say, ³secret therapeutic history.² That sort of gives me the notion that there were institutes, hospitals, doctors out there doing acceptable testing on patients. Is that what youıre talking about? Or are you just talking about people getting hold of the drug and using it on their own? Then we donıt necessarily know statistically what kind of results they get. Dr. Doblin: Right. By secret, I donıt mean just unknown or unheard of. I mean, people didnıt feel that they could do this in institutions. It wasnıt possible from the mid-1970ıs on. It wasnıt possible to get permission from the FDA to do research with psychedelics. They had a sea change, starting in 1990, at the FDA. Now theyıre open to the idea that drugs like marijuana and drugs like MDMA, any Schedule One drug really. Science before politics. The needs of patients before drug war ideology. We should be able to investigate this. Catherine Crier: Okay. Well, we have to take a quick break. Weıre going to have more with our guests on the highs and lows of Ecstasy. Including a young man, Chris, who uses it in the clubs. Later, a frightening look at the White Supremacy movement in the United States. [music to begin intermission] [music to begin re-entrance] Catherine Crier: Thanks for staying with us. Weıre talking about the increasing popularity of the psychedelic drug, Ecstasy. Iım joined by Rick Doblin, Sue Stevens, Ethan Brown and Dr. David McDowell. I believe we have Chris on the phone. My producerChris, youıre there. Great. Chris. You enjoy this in a recreational vein. Is that fair? Chris: Yes. Thatıs fair to say. Catherine Crier: Tell me what you do for a living. Chris: What I do for a living? Catherine Crier: Yes. Chris: Iım a professional actor. Catherine Crier: Okay. One might call that a profession. One might call that someone who would move more easily into a regular party scene. Let me ask you. How easy is it for you to get ahold of Ecstasy? Chris: Iıve found it relatively easy. Especially in the club scene in New York. Iıve just seen that itıs very prevalent, and if one were looking for it, it wouldnıt be that hard to come by. Catherine Crier: Okay. Why would you look for it? Whatıs the selling point? Chris: The selling point? Basically, itıs the fun. The recreational use behind it. When one is in that environment, under the influence, it become something that just enhances the moment. It sort of adds to the experience of being in the club. Itıs just sort of a fun thing to do. Catherine Crier: Okay. Is this the drug you would take away from that very stimulated environment? Chris: Iıve thought about it before, and have never actually done that. But I guess in certain situations, perhaps. Yes. Itıs something that I think could be entertained in a different environment. Catherine Crier: Okay. They talk about the psychedelic ³character² of the drugs. Itıs been described as very simplistic, to me. Sort of a cross between sort of mescaline and amphetamines or mescaline and speed. Where youıve got a bit of a hallucinatory effect, but also sort of an adrenaline-speed rush. Is that fair? Chris: Yes. Thatıs absolutely fair. It gives you a lot of energy. It gives you stamina. It allows you to, if youıre dancing, to have a lot more time and energy. Itıs a very euphoric feeling. Yes. Itıs definitely Catherine Crier: Okay. What about the down-sides? We hear sort of like the depression hangover. The seratonin levels or the medical effect really drops. Then you suddenly do have a depressing hangover. Chris: Yes. I mean, in the morning, thereıs a mild hangover. Definitely, you feel the effects of it. It takes its toll on the body. Iıd say that itıs not any worse than they hangover you would get from having a few drinks or any other sort of a party situation, similar. But it does have its toll on the body. I think itıs a little different from your regular hangover, in terms of itıs more of a feeling you get like a muscular or physical feeling rather than a headache or feeling run down. Catherine Crier: Okay. What about these reports we hear of people being hospitalized or rushed to the emergency room for, number one overheating, and number two, sort of psychological trauma. Any friends of yours or you, in particular, experience that kind of thing? Chris: No. Iıve never had any experience or association with anything like that. Definitely experiences that were intense, so to speak. Where the emotions are running very deep. But nothing to the effect where you have a panic reaction or anything like that. I mean, I donıt know of anyone. I havenıt seen anything like that in my experience with it. Catherine Crier: Okay. Let me go back to the good doctor. David, this could sound, given whatıs been said, as the greatest thing since sliced bread. But there really is a down-side that doctors are looking at. Dr. McDowell: Yes. And itıs sort of this issue of burden-benefit or cost-benefit. In certain instances that you were bringing up, it may be worth that risk. But to have it widely available for a huge number of young people, and I donıt know how old Chris is, taking the drug repeatedly, the evidence is indirect. But itıs pretty compelling that it does some permanent damage to the seratonin system. As I said before, that may not mean much. Catherine Crier: But we donıt necessarily know. Dr. McDowell: Right. Catherine Crier: Long-term. We donıt know the answer to that question. Dr. McDowell: Right. Catherine Crier: Okay. Particularly about young people, because whenever we talk about drugs, the first argument, whether itıs marijuana and short-term memory and all this kind of thing. Iıve heard some memory studies that say maybe it does hurt short or even long-term memory. Those kind of things. Dr. McDowell: With MDMA, or what? Catherine Crier: MDMA. Dr. McDowell: Yes. I want to make it clear that we donıt know it, but the evidence is pretty compelling that it does. It certainly looks that way. Yes. There are fairly good studies that show mild impairments when people have used a great deal of MDMA. The problem with that is that itıs hard to find matched controls. Itıs hard to do good science on this stuff. So again, we donıt know. But ³donıt know² shouldnıt be interpreted as, ³Oh, then it means it probably isnıt there.² Catherine Crier: Okay. Ethan. Give us the big picture on this. I was again reading some of the information that primarily you compiled. In 1998, 1.5 of the high school seniors in this country said that theyıd used ecstasy the month before. Weıve moved to 2.5 in 1999, and our drug czar says this shows Ecstasy is sky-rocketing. What do the numbers show us? Mr. Brown: Just that, actually. I mean, still the numbers that youıre talking about are relatively small. But in terms of the seizures of the drug, those numbers are very, very high. I also think that the government was very late on this phenomenon. Just year or two ago, they were classifying Ecstasy seizures as amphetamine, and not Ecstasy. So I think those numbers might be a little misleading, and on the low side, actually. I spoke to teenagers who were in rehab. Not for Ecstasy, but for other drugs. In that particular rehab center, 85% of the kids had tried Ecstasy at one point or another. Catherine Crier: Okay. Actually, that was something that one of my cohorts was saying a couple of moments ago before the show started. Mr. Brown: Right. Catherine Crier: That some 85% of the kids on Long Island or wherever it was. Mr. Brown: No, thatıs not true. Catherine Crier: May have been trying this sort of thing. Rick, let me ask your opinion as we sort of wrap this up. Do you support the recreational, uncontrolled recreational use? Or are you simply fighting to put it back with doctors, back in the lab, and a possible prescription alternative for the medical profession? Rick Doblin: My primary work is trying to get this available by prescription. I must say that the criminalization of the recreational use is counterproductive. There are vastly more benefits that are being experienced by the users than harms. Just because drugs have risk is no reason to criminalize them. Thirty-five people a year die from skiing. We donıt think that we should criminalize skiing. The risks that Dr. McDowell talked about in terms of depression happening 15 or 30 years from now are entirely hypothetical. It doesnıt necessarily strike with the evidence that seratonin doesnıt itself decline substantially with age. So the problems weıre likely to see are ones that people are having right now. I think that the Male Voice: The recreational use. Rick Doblin: I think that the recreational use can be much better handled in the context of regulation-controlled taxation, honest education. General McCaffrey, on CNN on Friday, said that hundreds of people a month are coming to Haight Ashbury Medical Clinic for severe depression and psychosis. Thatıs nowhere near true. I spoke to the people there. So we have a massive exaggeration of the risks. Itıs a campaign of rhetoric and hysteria. It makes it very difficult to do the medical research. At the same time, people are getting extreme penalties that they donıt deserve. All right. Doctor, Iıll give you the last word. But you have that note of caution? Dr. McDowell: Yes. Iım a clinician and a researcher. I donıt disagree. I donıt believe these should be criminalized in such a way that they are. They only problem is that low seratonin states are the person whoıs depressed and old and who commits suicide and has severe depression. I think the heavy use of MDMA now may in fact make that much more likely. Catherine Crier: Okay. Just to everybody at home, nobodyıs advocating. Weıre just trying to investigate. Please understand. Chris, thank you very much. Ethan Brown, Rick Doblin, Dr. David McDowell and Sue Stevens. Much appreciated. [music begins] Now, coming up. Can a racist kick the habit of hate? Some incredible footage of the White Arian resistance movement, and an incredible story of redemption. [intermission]